Who the heck do you think you are? QUESTION from Patrick Laughing Wind (Coyote) November 26, 1999 Hello this is my first time posting here. I have a few things to ask but allow me to tell you a bit about myself first. I am a 24 year old married man and have been practicing the ways of my native american ancestors for better than 7 years now. I was raised catholic and attended 12 years of catholic school. Now i am no longer catholic it just dosent appeal to me at all and makes no sense. Please no preaching or praying for me for i have no need of it. I have made my choice and am happy to live with it. Now down to my questions. I know many People that are called wiccan or witches and they are by no means evil demonic or possesed by Satan as you call it. Why is it that just because they follow a path that is natural must they be considered in the clutches of Satan? I am part Blackfoot indidan and follow the path of my ancestors, A path that is quite old and nature based in tradition as well. Now i do not subscribe to the idea of Satan personaly but as a medicine man i do recognize the higher power of the Great Spirit (not the God you know by the way) I have been told many a time that i because of my path am also in the clutches of Satan. That is not even close to my beleif system nor is it even in fact a intelligent statement to make. Many out their want to save souls and that is fine to each their own i say but why must so many try to push the Bible on those of us that dont beleive it and are happy with what we know? So in short i just want to know why is it largely considered that if one is not a christian or catholic they must then be the servant of the devil? What ever happened to free choice and freedom of religion? Thank you those are all my questions be well and peace to you
Then under a different name and email address Mr. Patrick adds:
I have read all the posts so far that are on this board and i have to ask just who the hell do you people think you are???? You are down on any that do not agree with you, where do you see progress in this course of action? All it leads to is more fighting more pain and more destruction, all the things that the church is infamous for in the past! How many inquisitions, how many crusades, how many burnings do you people need? And this is supposed to be the Religion of a kind loving and forgiving god? Yet all i see here is condemnation, no acceptance and total lack of respect for others beleifs. Oh yes you address the issues oh so politely, but when one reads between the lines all that shows is arrogence and total lack of understanding and knowledge. What you fail to recognize is that Christianity is a fairly new and child like religion compared to others in the word. It is only a little over 2000 years old. The earth based religions that you seem so fond of condemming are able to be dated back to prehistoric times far older than Chrtist and his brood. Now dont get me wrong i think Jesus had some wonderful teachings and was a good man to be sure but the teachings have been so perverted by individuals and the church it is sickening. The holy mother church has withheld writings of the bible, editied wht it did not want people to read and ruled for years out of fear and destrucion. Oh yes thats a kind and forgiving god that is emulated there. I follow the path of mother earth and all i have to say is that my Goddess gave birth to your infantile and assine god and his brood of holy rolling soul savers, so dont be so quick to judge us and tell us we are wrong for the mother has ways of balanceing the scales. I do hope that you grow up and see the world around you as it was ment to be seen and not through the veil of ignorance like you are now....Please no prayers for me for i have my own beleifs and am happy to have them...I WILL PRAY FOR YOU. Thank you P. Coyote
And then on the Faith and Spirituality Forum, Mr. Patrick adds:
I have yet another question for you. I have been reading all the posts on this board and find that the common thread seems to be if people dont agree with the church or its teachings then they are under the influence of Satan. Why is this? Were we not all created with freedom to chose what we will? And just because other religions go against Christianity and caholocism does not automaticaly make them pawns of the devil, as is seemed to be the opinion of many here. I have nothing against anyone unless they give me a reason to dislike them i am quite openminded and like others of different faiths and have many friends that are both Wiccan and catholic, And even my catholic friends do not harp as much about satan as you do here. So i ask who and what exactly is Satan to you? Is he an idea for all you do not like and wish to see brought under the churches control or do you think that he is an actual person or entity that you must bring about the destruction of?
I dont understand the seemingly closed mindedness of this board for the most part and wish to know why is it that a relegion whos primary teaching was love resorts to such closedminded ideals and interpretations. Tolereance must be taught not Segregation for we all must try to get along and learn to love and accept each other for what and who we are not neccesaritly nitpick each others beleifs as seems to happen here. I was catholic once and was wondering what happened to the ideals of Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, And judge not least you yourself be judged Are those just words to be twisted and ignored or actual teachings? Thank you good day
ANSWER by John-Paul Ignatius on November 30, 1999 Dear Mr. Patrick or whoever your are:
I have allowed your hateful, judgmental, and hypocritical diatribe to be posted as an example of the mindset of many a witch and pagan. Your first posting was actually somewhat acceptible, but then under a different name and email you submit a hateful diatribe.
It should be known to all that would post questions in this forum or in any other forum on the Internet, that you are not anonymous. There is no such thing as anonymity on the Internet. A questioner can give all the fake names, third-party email addresses, or even fake email addresses they want and we will still know the computer that the posting comes from.
There is yet another diatribe submitted to this forum from another computer other than the one Mr. Patrick used for the questions above, and with yet another name. I imagine it is also him, or at least a friend of his. I will answer it separately.
Now as to give an answer to the basic issues, rather than a line-by-line response of this diatribe....
You state: I know many People that are called wiccan or witches and they are by no means evil demonic or possesed by Satan as you call it.
I never said that witches or pagans were possessed, evil, or demonic. Some witches and pagans may indeed be demonized, some may behave in rather evil ways; others do not. Some Christians are demonized and some may behave in rather evil ways also.
You ask: Why is it that just because they follow a path that is natural must they be considered in the clutches of Satan?
Natural? What is natural? Nature is a creation of God. God is the creator of all that is natural. It is He, the Creator of the Universe, who created nature and defines nature. To truly follow a path that is natural, one must follow the path of God, the creator of the natural. To attempt to follow a natural path without God would be liken to confusing one of Monet’s paintings for Monet himself. We can certainly analyze the style and content of Monet’s paintings. We can discover a lot about Monet from his paintings. But the paintings are not Monet.
The Bible wisely talks about this confusion:
ROM 1:20 Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse; In the above verse we see that creation (that which is natural) points to the Creator, who is God, just like a painting of Monet points to its creator, Monet. Thus, you, and the rest of the world have no excuse in failing to believe in God.
So that we are not confused here about which god, the God we are taking about, and that the Bible is talking about is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob – the Judeo-Christian God, who is the TRUE God, and the only God.
But some people see the creation and refuse to see the creator:
ROM 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. You state: What you fail to recognize is that Christianity is a fairly new and child like religion compared to others in the word. It is only a little over 2000 years old. The earth based religions that you seem so fond of condemming are able to be dated back to prehistoric times far older than Chrtist and his brood. Actually Christ, with the Father and the Holy Spirit, who is God, was before all that is. He was in existence before all that we call natural ever existed. He is before all religions. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning that has no beginning, and the end that has no end. The eternal One, from whom all things are made and subsist.
ROM 11:36 For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. 1COR 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things are and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and through whom we exist.
Christianity, is but one manifestation of how God has revealed Himself to his creation. Regardless of manner, it is but the One True God who exists and who created all that exists. All religions that stray from the Truth of the One True God are man-made. Such primitive attempts may be sincere strugglings to understand God on the part the ancient pagan religions in many cases, but then that is why God, in His compassion and desire to be known by men decided to reveal Himself to his creatures. He reveals himself initially through His creations (Romans 1:20); but he specifically reveals Himself through the Prophets and the Law of what we call the Old Testament; and through the incarnate Christ, Jesus the Son of God, in what we call the New Testament. But it is all the same story – the revelation of God to man, his creatures, out of love for us to restore (redeem) man to Himself in a faith and spirit relationship.
You ask: So in short i just want to know why is it largely considered that if one is not a christian or catholic they must then be the servant of the devil?
Matthew in Chapter 12:30 says, Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.
Those who reject the true God, or who believe in other gods other than the True God are, in one degree or another serving the devil. One cannot serve two masters (Matthew 6:24)
Some, of course, are doing this without knowing it directly. They have been blinded to the Truth for whatever reasons. One may not believe in germs, but that doesn’t mean germs don’t exist. God and Satan exist whether we believe so or not. We serve God or the devil whether we acknowledge it or not. We serve the devil every time we sin. Every Christian serves the devil to a degree each time he sins. Each person who rejects the truth serves the devil. You, sir, have rejected the truth that you were taught since you say you use to be a Catholic.
Now, some are innocents who because of invisible ignorance God’s grace may find a place with Him while yet not knowing Christ and His Church. But the reason there are millions in invisible ignorance is because of the sin of man. Again, however, how can you say you are in invisible ignorance when you have been taught the Truth, but rejected it?
God says in Exodus 20:3: You shall not have other gods besides me.
We have false teachers and scoundrels today to lead people astray from the Truth. Deuteronomy 13:14 affirms this: …that certain scoundrels have sprung up among you and have led astray the inhabitants of their city to serve other gods whom you have not known…
and listen to the words of our First Pope 2 Peter 2:1):
There were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master who ransomed them, bringing swift destruction on themselves. Lest we think that God has not specifically condemned worshipping nature, we find in Deuteronomy 17:3: …by serving other gods, or by worshiping the sun or the moon or any of the host of the sky, against my command…
And the result of this false pathway is…
DEUT 8:19 But if you forget the LORD, your God, and follow other gods, serving and worshiping them, I forewarn you this day that you will perish utterly.
2 Peter 2:1b: bringing swift destruction on themselves.
Why do Christians wish to evangelize? Out of Love. We love you, brother. And when we see a brother or sister on the road to perdition, love DEMANDS that we make every attempt to warn you.
But to your question, What ever happened to free choice and freedom of religion? …the choice is yours.
You state:
I dont understand the seemingly closed mindedness of this board for the most part and wish to know why is it that a relegion whos primary teaching was love resorts to such closedminded ideals and interpretations. Tolereance must be taught not Segregation for we all must try to get along and learn to love and accept each other for what and who we are not neccesaritly nitpick each others beleifs as seems to happen here. I was catholic once and was wondering what happened to the ideals of Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, And judge not least you yourself be judged Are those just words to be twisted and ignored or actual teachings? Thank you good day God, speaking through St. Paul, tells us what true love is. Love …does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. (1 Cor 13:6). Any love that fails to recognize TRUTH and fails to point out wrongdoing is a false love.
Jesus, in the eyes of the world, was close-minded. Why? Because he thought, preached, lived, and taught TRUTH. TRUTH is close-minded because truth, be definition excludes non-truth. Truth INCLUDES 1 + 1 = 2; Truth EXCLUDES 1 + 1 = 8. It is not being close-minded to believe, teach, and point out to others that 1 + 1 = 8 is wrong.
If we were to follow your illogic we could not evaluate anything. All grades in school would have to be abolished. It is close-minded to give a child a C on a paper because that is telling the child that his way of thinking is wrong. So what he thinks Washington D.C. is in Washington State. Who are we to be close-minded about his beliefs?
This is part and parcel of the Three Strategies of Satan. I would recommend readers to study the article that details this. Click here to view that document. All opinions are not equal. Some opinions are wrong and it is not close-minded to say so.
What is close-minded is a mind that is closed to Truth. It is there that we find the true intolerance -- intolerance to Truth.
This website is the most open-minded and tolerant website on the planet! Why? Because we are open to the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. And we are totally tolerant of truth.
You sir, on the other hand are extremely close-minded and intolerant. Look at what you say: all i have to say is that my Goddess gave birth to your infantile and assine god and his brood of holy rolling soul savers… I do hope that you grow up and see the world around you as it was ment to be seen and not through the veil of ignorance like you are now.
Boy that is sure an example of open-minded tolerance – especially when you come into a Catholic website to attack the Catholic worldview.
I have to ask, since you obviously hate Catholicism and think it is bogus, why are you here? Why are you posting questions in a Catholic website? If you TRULY had the open-minded tolerance that you claim to have (albeit falsely defined), you would go about your business and leave us to ours.
ah well.
We will pray for you that you may be enlightened to the Truth and return to the True God before it is too late.
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