Liturgy & Liturgical Law Forum: Penitential rite Form B

Penitential rite Form B QUESTION from John August 23, 2001
My question concerns Form B of the Penitential Rite at Mass. The rubrics state that the Kyrie is to be said or sung unless already included in one of the forms of the act of penance.
The text of Form B is as follows:
Celebrant: Lord, we have sinned against You. Lord have mercy. People: Lord, have mercy. Celebrant: Lord, show us Your mercy and love. People: And grant us Your salvation.
Is the above to be interpreted as including the Kyrie?
My personal take on the matter is that it is not to be so interpreted. The single Lord, have mercy does not in my opinion constitute a formal Kyrie.
Yet, if after reciting the above exchange, we say Lord, have mercy. Christ have mercy. Lord, have mercy it sounds redundant.
It appears that this confusion arises as a result of a rite that was cast in two languages (Latin and Greek) being now reduced to a single language (English). In the editio typica, to follow Miserere nostri, Domine with Kyrie eleison does not sound in the least redundant.
My questions: Is or is not the Kyrie to be said following Form B? If it is, would it perhaps be a better solution to sing it in Greek as a rule when Form B is employed? To do so would also be in accord with Liturgiam Authenticam's expressed desire for the preservation of certain phrases in their original language.
Thank you for your kind attention and God bless you in your work. I'll be placing this site among my favorites.
ANSWER by Mr. Jacob Slavek on August 27, 2001
Dear John,
Your interpretation is correct, the Kyrie is NOT used in form B of the penitential rite. The Lord have mercy used in form B is translated from the LATIN phrase (not greek) in the latin missal Miserere nostri, Domine, whereas the Kyrie is translated from the Greek text in the Latin missal. They are different prayers, and therefore the kyrie must be sung/said after the penitential rite.
The people's response Lord have mercy in form B does not exist in the Latin Missal. Instead, the people respond quia peccavimus tibi or because we have sinned against you. SO... the problem that it sounds as if there were two kyries used when form b is used is because of poor translating. Thankfully, Rome has recently insisted that vernacular translations be more exact, so I strongly suspect that when the new English missal comes out (years from now), the problem will be gone.
It is not particularly a better idea to sing the kyrie in Greek when form B is used. If one is using the English missal, one might as well pray in English. It may be reduntant, but remember, it is not as redundant as the kyrie was in the Tridentine rite! Still, I think it is a good idea.
Thank you for the kind words,
Mr. Slavek
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